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WORLDWIDE Chapter 149 Message Board Forum Index » Pocket Watch Discussions » Waltham - Ball Brotherhood and Order Watches
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Waltham - Ball Brotherhood and Order Watches
PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:50 pm Reply with quote
Neilywatch
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Any Waltham Ball Specialists here?

I asked this question a long time ago, never really got a good answer.

Has anybody ever put together a list of the Different Orders and Brotherhood variations observed?

As in Jewel Count

OF or Hunter

I've come up with 6 different Orders and Brotherhoods

Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers
Brotherhood of Locomotive Firemen
Brotherhood of Locomotive Firemen AND Engineers
Brotherhood of Railroad Trainmen
Order of Railroad Conductors
Order of Railroad Trainmen

I believe everyone of these had a 17, 19, and 21j version.

I've never seen but only heard of maybe one in a Hunter Case

Does anyone check if these are marked Adjusted or Adj 5 positions?

Can anyone take the mystery out of this?

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Neil - Crazy for Walthams!
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:32 pm Reply with quote
StephanG
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According to the book I have on Railroad Watches (Townsend) those markings were the property of Mr Ball and he applied them as he wished to whatever make he was using at the time. They were his trade marks.

All those you mention are listed as well as

Official Time Service Standard
Official Standard 999
Railway Queen - on some ladies watches.

It also lists Brotherhood of Locomotive Firemen AND Engineers the other way around as Engineers and Fireman.

Alas no detail about what marks were applied to what.

It says in 1900 he had 37 watches approved for railway use but by 1915 this had been reduced to 15.

No breakdown for just Waltham.

Not much help I suspect.

Looking through the Waltham serial number list which lists the batches of watches and their type there are 21 batches listed as hunter case the last being in 1922 so there might have been some marked ones.

Might be some 23j as well.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:51 am Reply with quote
Sangamo
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Neil,
the townsend book mentioned above can be a start.

have you ever seen Ehrhardt's February 1983 newsletter?

I'll try to scan tonight, but it will not be a clean copy, I've marked it up pretty good.
Inside is a 'then' serial number listing

worth a look-see.

ETA
Neil,
I found my scan of the 1983 Ehrhardt Newletter, now attached.

sorry for all of the markups, thought it was a good idea at the time.

I'd also suggest review of the 2002 series of Railroader's Corner Articles on BAll, downloadable from NAWCC Bulletin archives.

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Terry Hall
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:53 pm Reply with quote
Neilywatch
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Terry and Steve -

Thanks for your input.

I do have the scan from last time. I forgot I had it.

I'll have to review it again.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:34 pm Reply with quote
Tmodel
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Neil I believe there is an order of breakmen too.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:56 pm Reply with quote
Sangamo
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maybe of some assistance from 1896

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Terry Hall
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:04 am Reply with quote
StephanG
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Thanks for the scans Terry.

I found it interesting.

As an aside did anyone spot the first few lines of the article that appears just after the table.
Don't want to mention it here and spoil the flow of this thread but I did have a bit of a smile to myself.

Getting back to this subject were the afore mentioned markings applied at the factory by the maker or did Mr Ball do it/get it done himself post delivery.

The answer is obvious for the longer runs but I was thinking of the short runs or presentation watches.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:55 am Reply with quote
Sangamo
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here's my O pinyun

Ball ordered, shipped with markings.

I do recall some discussions when Kapp was alive, perhaps the barrel covers were sent out and switcheroo for barrel cover and dial in Cleveland.
it is documented many barrel covers were not serialized.

Though Ball was indicated as a 'manufacturer' the extent of capabilities is still in question...

that in itself can make for an interesting discussion.

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Terry Hall
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 10:22 am Reply with quote
Neilywatch
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Hi Terry -

Thanks for the 2nd scan.

We had this discussion a long while ago - it was concluded that Ball was NOT a manufacturer in the true sense.

A jobber, maybe. He fitted the gold seals and the cases, at most.

The Barrel Bridges (barrel covers to you) Were prob left unserialized for Ball's convenience.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 10:23 am Reply with quote
Neilywatch
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BTW, Who was Kapp?

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:02 pm Reply with quote
rrwatch
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Tmodel wrote:
Neil I believe there is an order of breakmen too.

I have seen (or read) that the Brotherhood of Railroad Brakeman was merged into The Brotherhood of Railroad Trainmen in 1888. This would explain why there are no B of RR B Ball watches.

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Ed Ueberall
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 4:53 pm Reply with quote
Sangamo
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Bill Kapp, California NAWCC member, now deceased

There was a chapter 52??? website he maintained, had a lot of Ball info...
think he also posted with the someone.

the chapter 52 website may now be on nawcc.. unsure.

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Waltham - Ball Brotherhood and Order Watches
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