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opening up all marts to the Public
PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 12:34 am Reply with quote
Jon
Chapter President
Joined: 02 Dec 2002
Posts: 25175
Location: Boston, Ma




I have been asking for this for 30 years. Sadly there has never been a bon-fide attempt to allow in the public at all marts from the start to the finish. It is probably too late but it is something that must be done NOW--hasn't the nawcc lost enough members new and old, plus thousands of potential memberships to auction goers, private watch clubs, eBay, etc., etc.

Even at this late date there MUST be a change, and I am not speaking of the worthless "letting in the public" on dead Saturdays when 90% of the dealers have left and the place resembles a morgue!

Tom, we discussed this previous when you were elected to the BOD, but nothing has happened and I suspect nothing will.

Note: One progressive and wise thinking midwest chapter's regional WILL have the open mart plan at their upcoming regional early next year. Bravo!

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Jon "the truth" Hanson
Founder and President of Chapter 149--the leading horological collectors' club!
American Horologe Co -- America's Most Respected Name
SUPPORT ETHICAL PRACTICES IN HOROLOGY--Keep watches original--DO NOT SWITCH, PART OUT OR "CREATE" PW abortions!
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 3:34 am Reply with quote
StephanG
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Joined: 06 Nov 2008
Posts: 4419
Location: Melbourne Australia




I agree with this but one of the problems appears to be the notion that "members" will miss out on something if this is done.

For this to ever work and be accepted you have to find a way to solve that problem.

One possible solution may be to educate, advise, recommend, whatever that items on sale have 2 prices.

One for the public and one for members.

It may be as easy as having a price on everything and a sign that says 10/30/50% off for members or whatever other discount each seller may want to play with. Different sellers can have different rates or it might be a min rate that adjusts depending on the buyer and the item.

This shouldn't cost anyone anything and is more a shift of the way things are done plus it would be a very positive motivator to perhaps get some more members.
Nothing motivates better than seeing what you are missing out on.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 10:21 am Reply with quote
darrah
Chapter Member
Joined: 19 Jul 2007
Posts: 4152
Location: Houston, TX




After working several years on Regional events, I don't see where it makes any difference as to whether it is open to the public or not. The main problem is getting interested persons to join as members and that is what local Chapter events like One Day Shows can do. I think it would be best served if these types of local events were advertised more so that potential members can have a chance of seeing what becoming a member is all about. Invite anyone to One Day Shows and other local events. The trick is getting them to know when they occur so they can start making contact with a Chapter and then it is up to local members to make them feel wanted and why it is worth joining the NAWCC. Our local web site and email notices help advertise but other more aggressive advertising can be done locally to encourage membership. It is really up to local members to work at this problem and the NAWCC should make more of an effort to support this 'bottom up' approach. Persons in charge of the NAWCC should work on the idea that it is the local Chapters and their events that make the National and not necessarily the National and Regional events that make the membership grow. What better way to support local Chapter events then to donate prizes or money to them rather than conducting surveys and other research projects geared toward figuring out why National events attendance and low memberships are decreasing. National events pretty much suck due to the internet competition but that can change to some degree and Regional events can hold their own if local volunteers make it so. If Regional events grow then so will the NAWCC and National events. But, why should a local member belong to the NAWCC? Because they say so? That is not enough. The NAWCC should reward sustaining members and local Chapters for their loyalty and not just try and expect donations from them all the time. Give back to the loyal membership in a significant way. (I am sure the Board can figure something out.) Then these loyal members will think about giving back and be more loyal in return. Thank you for spending the time reading this.

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Ch 15, 124, 139, 149, 168
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 11:19 am Reply with quote
Ben_hutcherson
Chapter Member
Joined: 17 Feb 2010
Posts: 2258
Location: Frankfort, KY




StephanG wrote:
I agree with this but one of the problems appears to be the notion that "members" will miss out on something if this is done.

For this to ever work and be accepted you have to find a way to solve that problem.

One possible solution may be to educate, advise, recommend, whatever that items on sale have 2 prices.

One for the public and one for members.

It may be as easy as having a price on everything and a sign that says 10/30/50% off for members or whatever other discount each seller may want to play with. Different sellers can have different rates or it might be a min rate that adjusts depending on the buyer and the item.

This shouldn't cost anyone anything and is more a shift of the way things are done plus it would be a very positive motivator to perhaps get some more members.
Nothing motivates better than seeing what you are missing out on.


To be blunt, I do not want the NAWCC micro-managing how I price my items.

When I put an item out for sale, I have a price marked and a minimum price in mind that I will accept. Most sellers do this-there are still a lot of buyers who simply won't buy something unless you give them a price break. It doesn't matter if your tag price is too high and your "real" price is something realistic, or if you tag price is a fair price- they won't buy it unless you give them a price break. That just how some folks operate.

And, if you attend a regional you will find that pretty much every price is negotiable because everyone who sells regularly realized this a long time ago. Gun shows, coin shows, and train shows all work the same way around here.

And, the bottom line is that if someone comes and they count out the money at a price that I find acceptable, I'm going to sell it to them whether they're a member or a non-member. I don't go to the shows to make money, but there are shows where I'm glad to sell a watch just to take the sting off the cost of attending and everyone's money works the same way toward this for me.

So, again, I don't want the NAWCC telling me that I have to adhere to some sort of pricing structure they have set to entice new membership.

I'd much rather take my time talking to the members of the public, helping them out and educating them where I can, and showing them just what they gain by NAWCC membership. On "public" days I've pulled out my laptop and looked up a Hamilton in the ledgers or done things like that to show just what sort of resources available by joining.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 11:34 am Reply with quote
geno
Chapter Member
Joined: 28 Oct 2005
Posts: 1552




There are 2 things that will never be overcome as pertaining to Marts. Number one is simply the expense to attend. Depending on location you can easily blow $600 and more to attend long distance Marts and if you are just a collector and not a dealer it just doesn't make sense, the reason is number 2. Number 2, and probably the main reason is the lack of fresh goods and the perception that marts consist mainly of Ebay, auction and internet rejects and generally that is true. I joined in 1972 and in all those years have lost many good friends and dealers due to death, so the comaradarie that used to exist is also gone. Another reason is the so-called preshows, WWt and the Iwjg absolutely Mart killers when they used to coincide to a mart. These 2 entities have a much bigger life of their own and do not need to be connected to marts anymore. This is simply evolution and the Nawcc will never be what it once was, plain and simple. I see the main problem as economics, the price to attend events and the high cost of watches, simply beyond the reach of many. The destruction of the clock market is another reason, where except at the very high end prices have been destroyed and are a mere shadow of what they once were. So going forward, get used to smaller events where regionals are truly regional and will only attract mostly locals. The Nawcc is still needed to provide the platforms for the shows and marts that still exist and the general education of the public and newbies. Geno
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EXPOSURE--last chance for the nawcc to read the public
PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 12:08 pm Reply with quote
Jon
Chapter President
Joined: 02 Dec 2002
Posts: 25175
Location: Boston, Ma




geno wrote:
There are 2 things that will never be overcome as pertaining to Marts. Number one is simply the expense to attend. Depending on location you can easily blow $600 and more to attend long distance Marts and if you are just a collector and not a dealer it just doesn't make sense, the reason is number 2. Number 2, and probably the main reason is the lack of fresh goods and the perception that marts consist mainly of Ebay, auction and internet rejects and generally that is true. I joined in 1972 and in all those years have lost many good friends and dealers due to death, so the comaradarie that used to exist is also gone. Another reason is the so-called preshows, WWt and the Iwjg absolutely Mart killers when they used to coincide to a mart. These 2 entities have a much bigger life of their own and do not need to be connected to marts anymore. This is simply evolution and the Nawcc will never be what it once was, plain and simple. I see the main problem as economics, the price to attend events and the high cost of watches, simply beyond the reach of many. The destruction of the clock market is another reason, where except at the very high end prices have been destroyed and are a mere shadow of what they once were. So going forward, get used to smaller events where regionals are truly regional and will only attract mostly locals. The Nawcc is still needed to provide the platforms for the shows and marts that still exist and the general education of the public and newbies. Geno


To paraphrase what Geno stated above what folks just don't understand is that once the goods left the circle of association marts (meaning the NAWCC isn't exclusive anymore) the folks have gone elsewhere to auctions, eBay and private clubs to buy, trade and collect. It has been this way on a sliding scale for 20 years. And, during these mart times the nawcc has lost the opportunity to potentially gain thousands of new members. In a word the nawcc blew it.

Add the huge costs to attend a mart--why would anyone in there right mind spend $70 or $80 to join before entering a mart to decide if they really wanted to join? As I have stated for decades allow everyone in to trade and potentially join; hopefully some of the population still might decide they like horology and desire to learn, collect, research, and study clocks and watches.

_________________
Jon "the truth" Hanson
Founder and President of Chapter 149--the leading horological collectors' club!
American Horologe Co -- America's Most Respected Name
SUPPORT ETHICAL PRACTICES IN HOROLOGY--Keep watches original--DO NOT SWITCH, PART OUT OR "CREATE" PW abortions!
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 12:44 pm Reply with quote
Ben_hutcherson
Chapter Member
Joined: 17 Feb 2010
Posts: 2258
Location: Frankfort, KY




Here's a possible compromise that the eastern division TCA(Train Collectors Association) has been doing at their York meet since the beginning of time.

Non-members of the TCA can attend twice(with a sponsoring member). Once in the meet, they have the same full buying and selling priviledges as a regular member.

After two sponsored visits, they are required to join the TCA to continue to attend.

Of course, with regionals, it can be a nightmare to keep track of what non-members have attended since they are much smaller in scale, there are a lot more of them, they are administered by different chapters, and communication is minimal between the chapters.
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open marts
PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 1:39 pm Reply with quote
tomjbartels@gmail.com
Guest




My initial try at addressing the "public days" issue was contained in a membership program that was voted down by the board at the Dec. 2012 meeting due to objections from the ED that the plan required some staff involvement, which was already stretched too thin. The text of the plan can be found on the NAWCC web site under back up materials for that meeting.
I am currently working on another proposal that will not require staff involvement and plan, if reelected, to request a special committee to be established to gather information, review current policies and submit a recommendation for standardizing the policy.
This will include what times the public should be allowed in, what type of advertising and marketing materials should be provided, and how to minimize the "empty mart room" syndrome.
I would greatly appreciate your thoughts and suggestions on this. The membership committee will continually review and tweak the program by changing things that don't work and expanding on the things that do. I believe "public days" are an important resource for new members but need direction and consistency, and I am open to pretty much anything that might alleviate the problems we are having. Some regionals, like Syracuse, are having good success with the program, while others are experiencing very little attendance from the public.
Thanks for listening.
Tom Bartels
Current system DOES NOT WORK TO GAIN INTEREST
PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 3:22 pm Reply with quote
Jon
Chapter President
Joined: 02 Dec 2002
Posts: 25175
Location: Boston, Ma




We repeat--when the show opens ALL attendees should be allowed in. If there is a complaint from pre sellers, allow only valid table holders in all at the same time an hour or two before everyone (including the public) enters.

This nonsense of allowing in the public after these shows are over is ABSURD! It does not work and does not help in getting new members to join the nawcc.

Also, and in my opinion special materials about the organization and a few old bulletins should be passed out to "public" members; in other words, do various things that will make non members want to become members. Do things to create an interest in horology for these new folks.

_________________
Jon "the truth" Hanson
Founder and President of Chapter 149--the leading horological collectors' club!
American Horologe Co -- America's Most Respected Name
SUPPORT ETHICAL PRACTICES IN HOROLOGY--Keep watches original--DO NOT SWITCH, PART OUT OR "CREATE" PW abortions!
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 4:48 pm Reply with quote
StephanG
Friend of 149
Joined: 06 Nov 2008
Posts: 4419
Location: Melbourne Australia




To be blunt, I do not want the NAWCC micro-managing how I price my items.

That is not what I said.

I only called for a small change to the way you present your stuff.

If you are going to tell me that it makes no difference to your prices when selling to a member or a non member then what is the point of having closed marts in the first place.

If there is a difference then why not advertise that difference and use it as a readily visible benefit to joining up.

The NAWCC should not be telling you how much. They should only be involved in managing how it is presented to get some kind of uniformity.

If you prefer leave all prices as is for members and have a 20% premium for the public. Same thing.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 6:27 pm Reply with quote
Jon
Chapter President
Joined: 02 Dec 2002
Posts: 25175
Location: Boston, Ma




Come on; 99% of the goods at regionals are priced way to high to ridiculous as a certain portion of the sellers are not in tune with the market!

In any selling venue the list and selling prices are up to the seller (the owner sets the value, high or low) negotiable with the buyer. Separate prices are absurd!

_________________
Jon "the truth" Hanson
Founder and President of Chapter 149--the leading horological collectors' club!
American Horologe Co -- America's Most Respected Name
SUPPORT ETHICAL PRACTICES IN HOROLOGY--Keep watches original--DO NOT SWITCH, PART OUT OR "CREATE" PW abortions!
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 6:36 pm Reply with quote
Jon
Chapter President
Joined: 02 Dec 2002
Posts: 25175
Location: Boston, Ma




Frankly, I would worry more about attracting the public into these mart venues and promoting horology country wide via antique magazines, antique sections of the local newspapers, radio/TV programs, weekly.monthly by lines in journals, libraries and going after more of those that can afford Ws and Cs, i.e. lawyers, doctors, professional folks and corporations.

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Jon "the truth" Hanson
Founder and President of Chapter 149--the leading horological collectors' club!
American Horologe Co -- America's Most Respected Name
SUPPORT ETHICAL PRACTICES IN HOROLOGY--Keep watches original--DO NOT SWITCH, PART OUT OR "CREATE" PW abortions!
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 9:24 pm Reply with quote
StephanG
Friend of 149
Joined: 06 Nov 2008
Posts: 4419
Location: Melbourne Australia




I was not after an actual change to prices.

Just a different approach to how prices are displayed.

It's called marketing and the idea is to offer some kind of carrot to get non members to come along and perhaps sign up.

It's not rocket science.

If you can't see how such a simple idea might be used to advantage or think it is too much bother then what do you want the NAWCC to do.

They don't have a magic wand to wave to get people to attend marts.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 9:32 pm Reply with quote
StephanG
Friend of 149
Joined: 06 Nov 2008
Posts: 4419
Location: Melbourne Australia




In any selling venue the list and selling prices are up to the seller (the owner sets the value, high or low) negotiable with the buyer. Separate prices are absurd!

Very true for a shop or any other NORMAL selling situation but these are closed marts that you want to open up to the Public.

If you do that without some visible point of difference between members and non members where is the motivation for a non member to join up.

Also if non members get equal access and pricing I can think of a few members who will be pissed off.

That is why there is continued resistance to your ideas.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 7:07 am Reply with quote
Jon
Chapter President
Joined: 02 Dec 2002
Posts: 25175
Location: Boston, Ma




let them be ticked off; who cares?

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Jon "the truth" Hanson
Founder and President of Chapter 149--the leading horological collectors' club!
American Horologe Co -- America's Most Respected Name
SUPPORT ETHICAL PRACTICES IN HOROLOGY--Keep watches original--DO NOT SWITCH, PART OUT OR "CREATE" PW abortions!
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
opening up all marts to the Public
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