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Beautiful and the highest quality but NOT rare
PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 7:18 pm Reply with quote
Jon
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Joined: 02 Dec 2002
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Location: Boston, Ma




And, the rarity issue continues by those who have no clue--21J Elgin convertibles are not rare; these are definitely the finest quality watch made by Elgin Nat'l but are not rare. I know of one collector who had nearly 40 of these watches; personally, I have owned about 18 of these. We see them everywhere these past 4 years.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 10:05 pm Reply with quote
Neilywatch
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Jon -

I think the rarity perception comes from when 2 collectors own 58 pieces between the 2 of them - and the others may be held in other collections.

Most of them are not in circulation - hence the perception they are rare!

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Neil - Crazy for Walthams!
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 10:22 pm Reply with quote
interstatetime
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But Neil, I think a motivated collector can buy a nice example of either of the 21j convertibles anytime he or she wants to. They may also be called rare because they are out of most people's reach price wise...which means they are expensive...not rare.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 10:24 pm Reply with quote
Jon
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Location: Boston, Ma




Neil,

Or, the item is so rare NO ONE HAS IT! Wink

Remember 99.9% of the folks have no idea of rarity!

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Jon "the truth" Hanson
Founder and President of Chapter 149--the leading horological collectors' club!
American Horologe Co -- America's Most Respected Name
SUPPORT ETHICAL PRACTICES IN HOROLOGY--Keep watches original--DO NOT SWITCH, PART OUT OR "CREATE" PW abortions!
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 10:27 pm Reply with quote
Jon
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Location: Boston, Ma




We must NOT confuse rarity and price. The demand factor can certainly run up "common" watches; conversely, some watches are so rare no one cares!

There is an old adage in the collectibles markets which I have been saying back to my NN days 50 yrs ago--"the collector is (may be) rarer than the coin!"

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Jon "the truth" Hanson
Founder and President of Chapter 149--the leading horological collectors' club!
American Horologe Co -- America's Most Respected Name
SUPPORT ETHICAL PRACTICES IN HOROLOGY--Keep watches original--DO NOT SWITCH, PART OUT OR "CREATE" PW abortions!
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 10:32 pm Reply with quote
interstatetime
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Jon wrote:

There is an old adage in the collectibles markets which I have been saying back to my NN days 50 yrs ago--"the collector is (may be) rarer than the coin!"


This can be so true!

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 11:27 am Reply with quote
Jon
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Neilywatch wrote:
Jon -

I think the rarity perception comes from when 2 collectors own 58 pieces between the 2 of them - and the others may be held in other collections.

Most of them are not in circulation - hence the perception they are rare!


ADD: then, they must be very desirable!

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Jon "the truth" Hanson
Founder and President of Chapter 149--the leading horological collectors' club!
American Horologe Co -- America's Most Respected Name
SUPPORT ETHICAL PRACTICES IN HOROLOGY--Keep watches original--DO NOT SWITCH, PART OUT OR "CREATE" PW abortions!
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 1:07 pm Reply with quote
HOWARD
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Joined: 19 Sep 2008
Posts: 95




Here are the issues with these fine watches.

1. How many are choice, with good dials and unmolested?

2. How many have been recased?

3. How many have their original DS dials?

Howard

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Howard
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 6:32 pm Reply with quote
StephanG
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Jon wrote:
Neilywatch wrote:
Jon -

I think the rarity perception comes from when 2 collectors own 58 pieces between the 2 of them - and the others may be held in other collections.

Most of them are not in circulation - hence the perception they are rare!


ADD: then, they must be very desirable!


Desirable only means popular.

Many collectors collect things few others want.
I know of someone who goes weak at the knees when he finds a new variant of a Box Brownie camera.
Has a collection of them in display cases in a climate controlled room in his house.
Can't get excited about them myself.

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Learning all the time.

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Desirable only means popular--WHAT?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 10:48 pm Reply with quote
Jon
Chapter President
Joined: 02 Dec 2002
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Location: Boston, Ma




Let's stay on topic--WATCHES; specifically the 21 J Elgin convertibles:

These are the best of Elgin (or at worst 1 of 2 of the best of Elgin)

Superb quality and finish

Fairly low production

Beauty and eye appeal beyond most all of their watches

Special innovation

What more do you want?

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Jon "the truth" Hanson
Founder and President of Chapter 149--the leading horological collectors' club!
American Horologe Co -- America's Most Respected Name
SUPPORT ETHICAL PRACTICES IN HOROLOGY--Keep watches original--DO NOT SWITCH, PART OUT OR "CREATE" PW abortions!
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 12:16 am Reply with quote
Jon
Chapter President
Joined: 02 Dec 2002
Posts: 25534
Location: Boston, Ma




Neilywatch wrote:
Jon -

I think the rarity perception comes from when 2 collectors own 58 pieces between the 2 of them - and the others may be held in other collections.

Most of them are not in circulation - hence the perception they are rare!


Most of these have been recirculated into the collecting community over years.

_________________
Jon "the truth" Hanson
Founder and President of Chapter 149--the leading horological collectors' club!
American Horologe Co -- America's Most Respected Name
SUPPORT ETHICAL PRACTICES IN HOROLOGY--Keep watches original--DO NOT SWITCH, PART OUT OR "CREATE" PW abortions!
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 11:11 am Reply with quote
geno
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Joined: 28 Oct 2005
Posts: 1602




The one constant is the available supply stays the same, but demand generally goes down, as is the case for many watches, resulting in lower prices. That trend will not change and we won't see the high prices of the past ever again. Geno
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 12:09 pm Reply with quote
Jon
Chapter President
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Location: Boston, Ma




For these watches the high prices were achieved recently! Had not so many surfaced, prices might have held up.

Here is an example of a rare watch--the Waltham 19J Ball indicators: 27,500. then the watch was dumped at $20K; then one at approx 13K, then one at 5K (resold by RG at $6K), then a real rat at 22-2300, and one just sold last week for 13K. Ok course, condition played a factor, but these are all over the place.

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Jon "the truth" Hanson
Founder and President of Chapter 149--the leading horological collectors' club!
American Horologe Co -- America's Most Respected Name
SUPPORT ETHICAL PRACTICES IN HOROLOGY--Keep watches original--DO NOT SWITCH, PART OUT OR "CREATE" PW abortions!
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 1:37 pm Reply with quote
geno
Chapter Member
Joined: 28 Oct 2005
Posts: 1602




Nothing is going to change the dynamic of lower demand, there will always be anomolys to price. The point is you won't see a Ball sell for $27,000 again or a 161B for 40,000 and so on. Many peiople are ignorant of what the current state of the market really is, if everybody was aware they would be scared to death if they are holding a big collection now worth half or less. Look what happened to the so called rare Swatch watches and Beanie babies, once the hysteria dies down the market craters. The mosst important aspect of price is demand plain and simple. I'm not going to stop buying or collecting till I'm dead, but I will not pay a stupid price to own anything. My reality of the marketplace may be far different than others, that's ok becuase I only rely on my knowledge. I own 4 or 5 21 Elgin Convertables at some point I will have to say enough is enough. Geno
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 1:50 pm Reply with quote
Jon
Chapter President
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Location: Boston, Ma




Agreed; however, being scared might be reserved for current day buyers and ignorant speculators*. Certainly, goods bought many decades ago by expert and experienced collectors has been a great storehouse of value.

*Case in point--the "wild man" dealer who paid 27.5K (against another wildman dealer/collector) for a Waltham Ball Indicator 2 1/2years ago realized his mistake and dumped it for $20K which was probably smart. Did these prices paid prompt the $13K another brought just last week? (I would be in at, say, half that!) Therefore, how low is low? Or, until the price gets so insulting that you and I or others would be in at 3,4, or 5K!*

At some level it all begins again!

*Remember, I have stated many times that I discovered the very first one, priced at $300. by a St Louis dealer which I let my friend Art have for $275.

Tagline: As I have said for 30-40 years, spend only what you can afford to lose.


Last edited by Jon on Sun Mar 05, 2017 1:54 pm; edited 1 time in total

_________________
Jon "the truth" Hanson
Founder and President of Chapter 149--the leading horological collectors' club!
American Horologe Co -- America's Most Respected Name
SUPPORT ETHICAL PRACTICES IN HOROLOGY--Keep watches original--DO NOT SWITCH, PART OUT OR "CREATE" PW abortions!
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Beautiful and the highest quality but NOT rare
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